Many of JP's posts, like this one like to poke fun at the morals of atheists, and extol the perfect nature of a Torah society.
For your not so pleasurable reading, you can read this and this to get a little glimpse of what is going on in the ultraorthodox community.
What is disturbing, more than the crimes themselves, is the resistance and outright defiance in these communities to own up to their problems, as in this story. (Sorry, only in Hebrew. It tells of thugs from the Mea Shiarim area vandalizing the social services office nearby, because of the abusive mother from their community who was arrested there).
My point in these stories is not to say that Heredi people are bad, its just that they are at best no better than anybody else, and worse, since they deny their problems and refuse to cooperate with authorities, perpetuate the problem. This has occured in some high profile cases in New York as well.
So all of you skeptics, Kofrim, apostates--be proud! We're better than them!
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LOL these guys are clowns!
"Haredi City Has Highest Rate Of Sex Offenses"
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/03/haredi-city-has.html
"Are We Witnessing the Death of Israel by a Thousand Cuts?"
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=8547
"Haredi's Most Wanted: The 5 Worst Offenders"
http://www.jewcy.com/post/haredi_most_wanted
I wouldn't gloat, Shalmo, the Muslim world is full of filth and corruption, too.
Iran models itself as the ideal Muslim state integrating democracy and religion. Look where it got them. Everybody wants to move to Iran, I'll bet they can't even keep up with the visa requests. Ditto Pakistan, "Palestine", Syria and others.
Don't compare apples and oranges.
Israel gets billions of dollars of pity money wrenched out of european nations for the Holocaust as well as the world famous $6 billion dollar bonus ANNUALLY from the US. Israel has money (AND LOTS OF IT), where as most muslim countries are still recovering from colonial hangover.
DrJ as a theist I believe everything is part of Hashem's plan, even the poverty in muslim countries you just mentioned.
Consider this possibility. Suppose you have a religion for all mankind. Well then the question becomes how do you transport that religion for the rest of the world to have access to.
Yeah sure you can have proselytizing, but how much does that accomplish. If you were God wouldn't a better strategy be to induce poverty in the nations who adhere to you in order to scatter them on the globe in order to create power bases for his religion in those other regions.
Think of what's happening in Europe for instance. The native populations are going down with average birth rates of 1.3 per family, where as the muslim populations there are skyrocketing with estimated 8 babies per family, but more importantly through immigration from poverty stricken countries.
Or how about Canada and the US. Same story here. Lots of muslim immigrants = solid base for Islam in North America = 3000 people converting to Islam annually in Canada, with a similar rate of 20,000 in the US (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfx4glTU5JQ&feature=channel_page). And all of this would not have been possible without massive emigration of muslims now would it? Do you get where I'm going with this
The filth and corruption you just mentioned is what is helping us slowly take over the world.....muhahahahahahahaha!!!!
And btw I wasn't gloating. The haredi issue is one that is very close to my heart because many good friends of mine in Israel are hardi runaways.
Also DrJ could you please make a post about JP and his rabbis disowning him. Ask onionsoupmix for details on the matter.
The belief that frum Jews are better than the rest of humanity is an article of faith in chareidi circles. The order of importance in creation is plants, animals, goyim, and yidden. So if a government agency (especially a government agency) accuses a frum person of a crime, the accuser is an evil oppressor of the good and pious.
> Yeah sure you can have proselytizing, but how much does that accomplish. If you were God wouldn't a better strategy be to induce poverty in the nations who adhere to you in order to scatter them on the globe in order to create power bases for his religion in those other regions.
What a cold and self-serving God you believe in! Deliberately causing His faithful to suffer in order to further His own ends.
G*3:
"The order of importance in creation is plants, animals, goyim, and yidden."
Can I please have a citation for this?
"What a cold and self-serving God you believe in! Deliberately causing His faithful to suffer in order to further His own ends."
I reject the post-modernist western emotionalism with which you make that argument. The sooner the messianic era comes,the better it would be for all of us. Besides many of them are themselves responsible for the poverty in those nations.
> Can I please have a citation for this?
No. Don't know one. There's a lot of stuff rattling around in my head from years of yeshiva. Haven't got a clue where most of it is written down.
> I reject the post-modernist western emotionalism with which you make that argument.
Yipee for you. Seriously though, doesn't Islam beleive in an omnibenevolent God?
> The sooner the messianic era comes,the better it would be for all of us.
In other words, the ends justify the means. Since in the end it will be better, the means are justified, no matter how terrible. Would you allow a human leader to get away with that justification? Say, Stalin?
Shalmo, your rationale for poverty is exactly like JP's argument for the holocaust or another argument that god made the holocaust so Jews would have a state. Of course a rational personal doesnt believe such a thing, any more than he could believe the nonsense you proposed. You don't think that's laughable? A God who would create poverty and torture billions, so he could "get" them to accept Islam? Only brainwashing would make you believe that.
>So all of you skeptics, Kofrim, apostates--be proud! We're better than them!
Love that.
With JP's holocaust example I already explained to him that the Holocaust established the opposite paradigm he was advocating, because most of Jewry became even more secular post Holocaust because they loathed religion that had brought such suffering upon them.
With my example it is not the case at all. The conversion rates speak for themself
Again like I said you don't have to agree with me. But the world around us and where its headed biulds itself on the paradigm I'm speaking about.
And G*3 yeah I believe in an omni-benevolent God, but benevolence is subjective isn't is? Morality is a grey area. And yes I believe if you and DrJ were not suffering from 21st century post-modernist emotionalism you wouldn't be making these sort of emotionally fallacious arguments.
But let's not argue in cirlces.
> yeah I believe in an omni-benevolent God, but benevolence is subjective isn't is?
A God Who causes suffering is not benevolent. That's why suffering in the world is a problem for all religions that claim an omnibenevolent God. You're making it even worse, though, by claiming that He really is benevolent becuase the ends justify the means.
> 21st century post-modernist emotionalism
What is that, exactly? Does it include the idea that allowing people to suffer is something to be avoided?
JP writes like Syed Qutb, who was one of the big movers and shakers in the Muslim Brotherhood back in the 40's and 50's. Basically, he's convinced that it's obvious that his theology is right, and that everyone else is stumbling around in the darkness waiting for his glorious light to be shed on them, and redeem them from their ignorance and misery. In the end, people like this find that everyone else can do just fine without them, and that their "truths" don't strike the rest of the world as quite so obvious. That's when they get angry. In some cases (as in the Muslims) heads roll; in other cases (as in JP), there's a great deal of whiny, snivelling, name-calling abuse. Fortunately, you can tune him out, and he's never going to be in charge of anything.
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